Building Brand at Retail Part 1

You know, if you're not gonna change the world, don't say you're gonna change the world. Don't greenwash things. Just be who you are. And if I get that consistent experience from the beginning through the end, from your messaging to how your product actually, you know, delivers on its promise, then I'll buy what you've told me, I'll buy the messaging that you've given me. And that's brand and that's branding. It's trying to influence that feeling.

Welcome back, retail fans. My name is Mike Fowler. I am the host of Retail Oriented. I am the VP of Retail Sales here at the Sales Factory. We're so excited to have you back today. We have a really special guest with us. Phillip Oakley is not only VP of brand, he's also got a great, great background for talking about brands, specifically brands about retail. So we're so excited to have him on the show today. We're gonna get into brand and how it affects your strategy at retail, all the different things, what is brand. We're gonna talk a lot a about the word brand, what it means, what it means to consumers, what it means to retailers, all kinds of interesting stuff. So, Philip, thanks for coming on the show. We're so excited to have you.

Thanks for having me. Um, by the way, all your guests are special, so it's okay. I understand. Yeah.

<laugh>, extra special guest, Phillip Oakley. So Phillip, let's start a little bit with your background, right? So, I know you've got a history with Lowe's, with the blue guys and the aprons over there. So tell me about your background and how that impacts brand, which we talked about.

So I'll go way back. Back to high school. You know, the glory days if you will. I took lots of art, like college credit art classes in high school. Um, I was really excited about things. Didn't really have a lot of like, I don't know, ideas about what to do in college or leadership for, you know, where my aptitude would take me at the time. So I went to university and just floundered. And I didn't know what I was doing. So I took some time off instead of spending money I didn't have. And, just got a part-time job, started working. Like anything else I did, I did it 110%. and I started as a part-time loader at Lowe's. Two weeks later I was in a department <laugh>. Yeah. So it didn't take much for them to grab me by the scruff of the neck and bring me inside.

So I ended up working in the paint department. Now this is early on, we had a spectrometer, which would measure paint and tell you where the formula was, but everything was tinted by hand. Literally open up the paint, put it underneath and actually hand measure all the tent and then put it in a shaker. So I enjoyed that, really enjoyed the work. Uh, from there they pulled me into another role cuz I knew a lot more. I just learned so much about the store quickly. Ended up on a stock crew and then six months later I was running that third shift stock crew. And then the next spring season rolls around, they, they stick me out as a department manager running outdoor lawn and garden. And long story short, there were things that we did to that garden center that were outside of just customer service and price promotions.

We actually changed the structure of that department as far as how traffic came in, how plants were taken care of, and the perception of how many parking places we had out front, which resulted in a 30% boom in sales. Yeah. So again, that was really my first taste of, I didn't realize it was strategy, but it was taking a step back. And now we call it cool things like design thinking. Yeah. Actually looking at patterns and understanding like, this is not working the way it should. We could actually be better if we did X, Y, Z. So from there they immediately put me in a different position and started, I became an assistant store manager and then they moved me. I ended up working at four different stores for Lowe's as an assistant store manager. I've managed every inch of that store at one point in time or another.

I have driven the delivery trucks when I shouldn't. I've stood behind the counter, wearing that Red Apron while some huge guy screamed at me cuz he didn't get what he wanted and had to talk him down and then make him my friend so I could help him. Um, so I didn't realize how many things I went through in life that made me a better, just kind of figured out who I was, but made me a better professional and a better person. And then one day I saw this movie called What Women Want with Mel Gibson. And I was like, holy smokes, if you haven't seen the movie, he's an ad executive and the whole thing is he, he does some silly things, gets the superpower, he can hear what women actually are thinking.

And so he does some really terrible things. But the really cool thing that I was drawn to is when he started to understand what people actually needed out of life, what made them tick and how they needed more help. He could do that for brands too. And I was like, that's what I wanna do for a living. And so, uh, my easy course into marketing and advertising was through graphic design. I went back and just got a design and advertising degree and I've spent the last 20 years doing just that, you know, going from being a designer to getting a strategy, starting my own firm, and then joining Sales Factory to, to learn a lot more about the world marketing.

Yeah. That's really interesting. I always, I remember seeing that movie for the first time. And it sounds like from what you just said, your superpower, if you could choose one would not be flying or invisibility. It would be the power to understand, what people think and how they make decisions. Right. That would be really cool.

And that's what we try to do. Literally. That is a huge part of what we do in marketing is try to understand people and how we can help them. And that can be really fulfilling when you figure that out.

<laugh>. Yeah. So you, you did spend a lot of hours in the store in different roles and different capacities. Um, you learned a ton about retail during that time. What were some brands that kind of jumped out to you, that stood out, made an impact, and, you noticed them in your role?

You know, it's interesting. There were some brands that now if you take a step back and what, what they would tell us, I'm going back to my paint department days. Some of the things that would tell us us, oh, this product is far superior to this one. Like, it's gonna last longer. It's gonna, you know, it's gonna harden the wood differently, yada, yada, yada. And it didn't matter because what happened was the pros were coming in and they were buying specific types of caulk, specific types of water sealer. Some of it was because then you had to work it, it worked easier for the pro it may not last longer, but it didn't damage their tools. They didn't have to go through as many rollers, and so they were really drawn to a product not because of quality and not because of price, but how efficiently they could use the product.

And if they had to come back and put it down again a few years later, they didn't care. Ultimately, if you're buying a product that was twice as expensive, it's the same cost in the long run, but they were able, it would actually remove friction and remove stress in their life by using certain types of products. And that really stood out to me. Because the consumers would come in and say, what are the pros buying, or they'd watch a pro come in and get five gallons of something and take it to the counter. Well, why are they buying that? Well, it's because honestly, it's because it, it works under the wall easier. That's why. Well, that sounds lovely. I'm not a professional if it's easier for the pro, isn't that what I should buy? And again, these are just little insights. If you paid attention, not just listen to the literature and the pitch and the marketing on the others products better define better. It's better because it's gonna last longer better because it costs 40% more, 80% more, 200% more. Or better, because I'm gonna have more confidence putting it on the surface. And that was, that stood out a lot for me.

Yeah, that's really interesting to see the influence of pros on DIYers.

Absolutely.

And all levels in all categories. Right. It tends to happen. So we're kind of talking about brand interchangeably with manufacturer, but we know that that's not really the case we're talking about. We're talking about manufacturers. Right. We're talking about different companies that do different things well and categories. But let's take a quick step back and kind of define for our viewers how we think of brand. You're the VP of brand at Sales Factory. So I think you've got a pretty good grasp on it. So what, what is brand to start with?

So if you go to Twitter or LinkedIn and ask that question, you'll get hundreds of answers.

<laugh>, Please don't make me do that.

They're all right and they're all wrong and it doesn't matter. Because ultimately brand is what we care about here. It's my opinion, if I say it's your reputation, it's your reputation, ultimately, it adds core. And this is my opinion, and I picked this up from a few people that I engage with and follow. It's, my gut feeling about something else, not just product and services. Now we have something called personal branding, which is trite, and and a lot of people don't like that. But ultimately it's how I feel about you. And the good thing about branding is you can try to influence the way I feel about you, but it's how you act. It's not your promotions. It's not the commercials. Um, you know, it's how you act on and off the field that matter.

And if you can do all the things you say you can do from, from how your marketing, excuse me, let's make sure I'm using the right word. Your promotions, <laugh>, your commercials and your out of home, et cetera, communicates to what I experience when I'm having that first moment of truth with your product to later when I'm actually using the product to how I see you act ethically. You know, if you're not gonna change the world, don't say you're gonna change the world. Don't greenwash things. Just be who you are. And if I get that consistent experience from the beginning through the end, from your messaging to how your product actually, you know, delivers on its promise, then I'll buy what you've told me, I'll buy the messaging that you've given me. And that's brand and that's branding. It's trying to influence that feeling.

Yeah. So, I talk a lot if you listen to me ever or have a conversation with me, ever, you hear me talking about authenticity and trust. And so one of the questions I had was, you know, how do you get brand right? You talked a lot about things that lead to trust, and it's through authenticity. Is that what brands need to strive for? Or what do you think a brand needs to strive for to get things right?

That's a really good question. And it's a shame that all these words, authenticity, that's another one has absolutely just become trite. And it's because it's overused and it's overused in a way that it's shoehorned into promotions, shoehorned into a company message, or especially going back to the personal brand, like someone, oh, I'm an authentic blah, blah, blah. If you have to say it right, don't tell me do it. Give an example, be an example for everything else. Um, so a lot of times in this is where marketing needs branding and branding needs marketing, I see them as you know, two hands to the same business. Marketing helps you understand the target audience helps create those products, helps create the right positioning, the right placement, the right pricing and make sure that you get it out in front of the right people and create the messaging in order to actually get them to accept and purchase that product.

Some of that is the brand in action. Now, where you get that authenticity is taking the brand deeper past just the external messaging. And, and I'm gonna mess this up, but one of my favorite stories, <laugh>, I guess I should know it, um, years ago, I can't remember the agency, but there was an agency that went in to work with Petigree. And they sat down with the board and they were talking to all the things they were gonna do, and they started hearing these conversations from the board. Someone on the board hated cats. Someone on the board didn't have a dog. And the agency, now you, you have to be pretty darn strong in, in your own <laugh> Authenticity to do. The agency basically said, we have some amazing things we're gonna do for you, but until this board loves pets, how can you be the best pet food maker in the world?

We are not gonna make empty messaging that's not authentic just to sell more dog food. When you're ready, we'll help you become the best dog food manufacturer in the world. And they left <laugh>. And the beautiful thing is, yeah, six months later, Petigree called 'em back and they had replaced some members on the board. And by God, everyone loves dog food, <laugh>. And so that to me is doing it. It's not just the external thing to, to sell more product, because eventually your consumers are gonna sniff through that, right? They're gonna. If it's not authentic, they're gonna feel it. But if you love dogs and you provide the best dog food and the best care in the world, I'm not, I'm not saying Petigree does that, by the way, I'm just telling the story. Your consumers, can attach themselves to that and buy into it and trust you.

So we're talking about things that are kind of at the core of who you are as a company, right? So that's kind of really important to brand and being successful with your brand long term. Right. Because it's, you're not pushing for the short term win. You're pushing for a long term relationship. With the people that are interacting with your brand. What are some of the, the outward symbols? Cuz we all, a lot of people associate brand with colors. Trademarks, logos, all that kind of thing. What, are some of the outward symbols that signify a brand because it's not just a logo or it's not just a color. Talk a little bit about that and, and just kind of how that is impacted. Cuz you said it's, it's everything that you do, right? And I want to hear a little bit more about that. So these people listening and watching at home can kind of understand like, oh, okay. That's brand also.

That's right. So if you're watching this video, um, if you're listening, great. You can still do this test. If you're watching this video, look at the laptop in front of you and take your thumb and put your thumb over the logo or look around your room, your sunglasses, your shoes, whatever it is. Put your thumb over the logo and think about do I know what that brand is without the logo? It works for cars, it works for, alcoholic, you know, like liquor. It works for, uh, shoes. I may have said shoes. It works for almost everything. If you can put your thumb over the logo and still know what that product is, then the brand exists for you. If someone has manufactured a product and just slapped a logo on it, and you can cover up that logo with your thumb, it doesn't pass the thumb test.

It's just an item that someone's hawked to you. So brand is so much bigger than the logo. It is the colors, it's the fonts, it's the smell, it's the sound. I mean, what's one of our favorites, you know, Netflix has made such a big difference. Now, Apple did it earlier on, you know, you turn on the Apple, you'd hear it or turn on a Mac, you'd hear it Of course. Adidas is a good example. I think I'm a big Adidas fan, so I'm just gonna go there. You can put your thumb over the logo. There's still three stripes. Okay. You're gonna cover up the logos and the stripes. Okay. Now you're gonna see the Toebox is a little bit bigger than Nike's. So there's a lot of things that go into a brand that make it different than the other brands around them.

Um, Makers, I've posted this in the past, a Maker's Mark is a good example of a good bourbon, put your thumb over the logo, but that's not the most recognizable thing on the bottle. It's the wax, it's the hand dipped wax seal that they put on the top. You'd actually cover that up <laugh> and reveal the logo. And do a better job of hiding the brand. So, it's all the things that are, around the brand that anything that can engage with a human sight, sound, taste, feel, obviously anything visual, but yeah. Try to explore all of that and see how you can differentiate yourselves and create little memories in your consumer's brains outside of, uh, just a logo.

That's really good advice and I hope people listening are thinking about how do they apply that to what they're doing, right? To what they're manufacturing or who they're engaging with. How they're engaging at retail. So I kind of want to talk about how brand applies at retail next. So if you're thinking about your brand, and partnering with a retailer, how does that differ or does that need to differ as opposed to if you're a brand that's selling direct to consumer or selling through, you know, kind of more traditional distribution methods as opposed to like a big retailer or an e-commerce retailer?

So what's interesting brick and mortar is, you know, we shouldn't take brick and mortar and separate it from DTC or separate it from e-commerce, separate it from channels like Amazon. Cuz people are still gonna shop those places when they're standing at retail, right? They're gonna stand in front of a bay and they're gonna be overwhelmed cuz they're used to having control over what's under their nose on the phone. Or scrolling through one item at a time on Amazon.When they're standing in retail, I don't care if it's the grocery store or Lowe's or heck even, you know, going to buy a new car. You know, you're just faced with this wide variety of things and you start asking questions and you don't always get an associate who can walk up or a rep who's happened to be in the store that day or, or enough room in the store for some nice, you know, signage to help you make those decisions.

The first thing consumers do is pull out the phone. So the difference at retail is we get to touch it, but before people touch it, they're most likely gonna go to their phone. So if you can guide people and help them understand how to connect that retail experience with e-com, DTC, anything else, any material, give them a QR code, give them a little signage, put it right on the package, have questions, here's your answers. Be the source of solution for them because the moment they get on to Google, while someone else is dying to get them into a into a digital shopping experience. Right? Um, you know, tell them right on the package or right at the shelf you have YouTube videos, they're gonna answer all the questions or show 'em exactly how to do it. Don't leave it up for them to go to YouTube and find someone else, someone else's how to videos.

Because they've probably been sponsored by your competitors. The other thing is, if you can get them to actually touch that product, take it off the shelf, don't hide it in a clams, shell give a little window, make sure they can see the product. Again, the touch, this tangible thing is what's different between physical retail and what's online. If they can physically touch the product, if you can get them to take the product off the shelf, they're 30% more likely to buy that product than what's on their phone. That's huge. That's huge. That's a big deal. So yeah, take advantage of being in the retail, but do not ignore the other channels because the only channel that matters is right here in the consumer's minds. Am I ready to buy this product? It doesn't matter where it's trying to be sold.

Yeah. So I think that's a really important point is that you have got to take advantage of the opportunity that you have at retail to close that deal. Right then and there. Right. So cuz once, once they go online, once they pick their phone out of their pocket and start looking on Amazon, all bets are off <laugh>, right? Like it can be to their house that afternoon most likely. So if you're gonna be in store, be ready to be there and close some sales in the store, don't let people walk out. Right, because it's all bets are off.

All bets are off. I like that point.

<laugh>. Um, all right, Philip, we're learning a ton about brand. So much in fact that I think we're gonna break this into two episodes or a two-part series on brand with Philip Oakley. He's had a ton of really cool stuff. I've taken a peek at his notes. I know he is got a lot more interesting stuff to share with you guys. So we're gonna break this into two parts. We hope that you'll come back and check out part two of the brand series, with Philip Oakley. There's a lot more to share that we're excited about sharing with you guys. But if you've enjoyed this part one of talking about brand at retail with Philip Oakley, click the like button, click the subscribe button, hit the little bell icon wherever you're watching or listening to your podcast, whether it's YouTube, Apple, Spotify, whatever.

Go ahead and leave a little rating there or comment if you got some, some feedback for us or something that you want to see or hear. Drop it in the comment section or shoot me an email personally, mike.fowler@salesfactory.com We would love to hear from you guys what you want to see more of on Retail Oriented. So reach out to us, go on our website, SalesFactory.com, fill out a form we want to hear from you guys. And remember when you're thinking about retail, when you're thinking about brand at retail, it's all about selling in and selling through.