Transcript
Phillip Oakley:
Ask yourself why you're rebranding in the first place. It's because sales are low or we don't have as much penetration or recall. Okay, why not? A new logo and some fancy packaging isn't going to be the solution, unless you truly understand the real sales problem. This is about numbers, it's not about logos.
Mike Fowler:
All right, guys. Welcome back, retail fans, to part two of our conversation on brand. If you didn't catch the first part, I would suggest you go back and watch that first part of the conversation because it's kind of foundational to what we're talking about now. If you're just joining us, you're on Retail Oriented. I'm your host, Mike Fowler. We've got an incredible guest, Phillip Oakley.
Phillip Oakley:
Thank you, Mike.
Mike Fowler:
Who's our VP of Brand at Sales Factory, and we're talking all about brand, but there's a lot of really juicy, good tidbits in that first part. So maybe go back and take a look at that or start here and then go back and watch it after you've watched this episode. Either way, you're getting a lot of really good information and good stuff on brand and really how brands impact sales at retail because that's what we care about.
We're Sales Factory, we're talking about how do we impact the numbers on retail shelves. So to that end, Phillip, you spend a lot of time at Lowe's, so I want to hear a little bit more about some of the things that you saw, the big winners, the big brands that were doing really well. What did they have in common? What were the things that you noticed through different categories, different jobs, different roles when you were at Lowe's that the really big brands and manufacturers did well and what did they have in common?
Phillip Oakley:
Yeah, absolutely. So to set the table a little bit for, again, someone who may be new. I was there in the late nineties, early odds. We had the internet. It was not everyone had the internet. There were no smartphones walking around. We had no purpose for a QR code.
Mike Fowler:
You've just aged both of us sitting here.
Phillip Oakley:
Yeah, a little bit.
Mike Fowler:
But it's okay.
Phillip Oakley:
But again, it's the basics that really make the difference for successful marketing and brand building too. The biggest brands did the same thing we do now. They don't or didn't take the consumer for granted. So the best brands, and I won't name the brands, but very clear, the paint department, the tool department, outdoor lawn and garden. They had reps in the store and they had reps in the store on busy days when they knew consumers were going to be standing there asking questions, trying to figure out what they were going to buy. They had signage. They clearly explained things, they understood their packaging was a salesperson. And so as long as you're trying to do what's best for answering the consumer's questions, fears, and frustrations, and give them more information than they needed, then it was a real good chance to make a connection with them.
So we even had several things had tear sheets. We'd literally zip tie them to the uprights and we'd have these tear sheets where if you're installing a window, take this tear sheet because it shows you all the things you need. You need a level, you need caulk, you need all these things to finish a project. Nothing pisses a consumer off more than having to take that second or third trip back to Lowe's or Home Depot on a busy Saturday because they didn't get what they needed. And the first thing they do is blame the associates for not telling them. It doesn't matter if the associates are outnumbered 20 to one, it's still the associate's fault, and you know what it is?
It's kind of our responsibility to help the consumer when they're there. Now, flash forward to today, we have the opportunity to help on YouTube or TikTok or on our website. We have other tools and avenues to help that consumer, but if you don't take the consumer for granted, give them all the information, advice, and access points they need to actually use your products to success, or in the case of the retailer, use the products they got from you to success, you have a better chance to make a connection with them.
Mike Fowler:
I remember those project checklists so vividly and they're still around the stores if you look hard enough.
Phillip Oakley:
Sometimes. That's right. And they can be digital now, right?
Mike Fowler:
Yeah, they can be digital. I would say consumers that have a bad experience, they will definitely associate that with the associate, but they'll also roll that up to the manufacturer that they've purchased.
Phillip Oakley:
Absolutely.
Mike Fowler:
And to the retailer that they're walking in.
Phillip Oakley:
Absolutely.
Mike Fowler:
Whether you're blue or orange, if you give them the bad experience, they're going to remember it and they might go across the street next time.
Phillip Oakley:
And that's part of the brand.
Mike Fowler:
It's really, really important.
Phillip Oakley:
That experience is part of the brand.
Mike Fowler:
So you talked about guys that are doing it, guys and girls that are doing it really well. I want to talk a little bit about when it might be time for a change, a change to your brand, to your approach to how your brand is represented to the outside world? When should manufacturers look at themselves and say, "Okay, it might be a time for some change here." Because we don't see it super often where big brands are making changes. There's a lot of notable ones that made changes and it did not go well. And the history went back, I always think of Tropicana. Oh my gosh.
Phillip Oakley:
I could taste the orange juice right off the bat.
Mike Fowler:
But when is it time to make a change?
Phillip Oakley:
So let's take a step back as we dive into that, take a step back and play devil's advocate.
Mike Fowler:
Okay.
Phillip Oakley:
There's honestly a lot of times when a rebrand is prescribed and that's not the actual solution. A lot of people think they should rebrand and they shouldn't, and it's weird to hear that as an agency that helps with branding say, "You shouldn't do that." The real thing is take a step further back and make sure you understand the target audience because ask yourself why you're rebranding in the first place. It's because sales are low or we don't have as much penetration or recall. Okay, why not? A new logo and some fancy packaging isn't going to be the solution unless you truly understand the real sales problem. This is about numbers, it's not about logos. So going back and understanding the target audience, doing the research, et cetera, should give you an idea of what the real problem is.
It may be the consumer thinks you're irrelevant. You may be associated with something that's old or out of date. You may need to look for other ways to get new attention or refresh things. You may find out that your products just aren't as useful as they used to be, that there's some homemade solution that popped up on Pinterest or something that's actually better than your product, and you need to go learn how to create new products. When you have to change the consumer's perception of you is a good time for a rebrand, but it can't be empty. Just like going back to episode one, we talked about authenticity. It has to be rooted in something that you've actually made a change, a new formula, a new product, a new thing, whatever that is, a new understanding. Another reason would be if you're actually extending your circle of products offered, if you're tiptoeing into a new segment.
So maybe it's not a rebrand, it's a brand refresh. So it's taking what you've built on with your core audience and giving them something to chew on as you go into a wider range. An example we've talked about earlier is Cadillac has a good brand. I'm not the target audience, I still respect the brand. It's survived several refreshes, if you will. Honestly, they have beautiful cars now, it's even one of the most beautiful cars on the road. But several years back, they made a Cadillac line of bicycles and I think the line of thinking was retirement cruising on the beach and no one bought those things, because no one associated the Cadillac brand with putting the effort into pedaling a bicycle.
And a better example of someone who could have a line of bicycles because it associates with a brand is Subaru, because that is the target audience who's going to drive their car deep into the woods or at the top of the mountain and travel down that mountain and at break neck speed or go explore the trails and get lost. It's about that feel, and so being able to take that feel and pull that wider to what the target audience needs, you might bring in someone new. And so the brand refresh may just be around that bicycle as opposed to how they talk about the cars. Instead of safety and love, it's more pushing the sense of adventure and getting away from it all.
Mike Fowler:
Yeah. Yeah. That's really interesting. And as a cyclist, you hit home for me. And on brands that have a natural progression into channels like Subaru, cheap, there've been absolutely folks that have done it really well, and then ones that haven't. There's Porsche, there's Ferrari, there's Cadillac, all cycling products that have kind of fallen on their face, and it kind of speaks to know your audience, be authentic with them, and develop a relationship that goes past just the product.
Phillip Oakley:
Absolutely.
Mike Fowler:
That's super interesting. We are at a time right now, and I'm going to just tell the viewers if they're watching this or listening to this later, we're in October of 22 where retailers are really leaning into house brands. They're leaning into private label for a number of different reasons, and that's probably a whole episode on its own, but as a national brand, when you see retailers leaning into house brands and stuff, even in your category or adjacent categories, what's the response? How do you handle that? What are the pitfalls and what do they need to be mindful of as they're thinking about that as their next partnership meeting comes up or their next line review, next big meeting with their merchant? How do they approach that?
Phillip Oakley:
That's a great question. It's a hot recent topic. Lots of people much smarter than I have written some wonderful articles, and I don't want to repeat what they've said, but the questions that are kind of swimming around in my mind are, are those the heavy buyers, the people who believe in the brand who are buying the white label? Probably not. It's probably the light buyers. You need the light buyers to grow your brand. Someone who's going to buy just a little bit more, not the brand evangelists. It's probably safe to say the brand evangelists are going to buy that name brand they've always been buying because it's easy. I don't have to make a decision. I don't have to think about 10 extra cents on a box of macaroni and cheese. I like this brand. I've always bought this brand. This is what I'm going to buy without thinking twice.
So maybe a solution is to dig deeper into that heavy buyer, your brand evangelists, the people who love the brand and buy it without thinking and understand maybe not how to get them to buy more because they're probably not going to buy more. I think the data shows that. The idea is how do we get them to talk about the brand a little bit more, or how do we get them to buy something attached to it? Do they buy... I don't know. I don't want to pick out a specific industry, but do they buy another thing you're buying or another item that you're selling that they weren't buying before? How can you shore up those heavy buyers to make sure you don't lose those with a little some type of loyalty program or something like that to keep them so you don't lose them to the white label brands? And that's probably more of a long term brand play so that maybe when things get a little less rocky, you'll be able to bring in more of those light buyers because look at all the people buying the brand name.
Mike Fowler:
Sure. And we kind of talked about this in terms of pros and DIYers in part one of this episode, but heavy buyer and light buyer is pretty applicable as well, right?
Phillip Oakley:
Absolutely.
Mike Fowler:
And those light buyers look to the heavy buyers to get advice, to see what brands and what products they're interacting with in a category because hey, if it's good enough for them, I should trust that. Right?
Phillip Oakley:
Absolutely.
Mike Fowler:
If it's good enough. I remember buying a global eight-inch chef knife because I heard Anthony Bourdain talking about it as a good value chef knife, and I was like, "If it's good enough for Anthony Bourdain, it's definitely good enough for me to cut carrots in the kitchen." So you look to the experience person in a category to kind of see where you should go, and so that's really applicable. And when you're thinking about house brands and how do you interact, where are you focusing your attentions and your dollars in marketing and kind of retaining and retaining the next buyers.
Phillip Oakley:
Without cheapening the brand too.
Mike Fowler:
Sure.
Phillip Oakley:
Because you talk about dollars, I think it's quick to see sales are dipping, let's offer a price promotion. I don't pretend to be the price promotion specialist. We have a good team for that. But if you immediately start dipping your prices to compete with a white label, then you're cheapening the brand period.
Mike Fowler:
Sure.
Phillip Oakley:
Don't come off the mountain to play in the mud with that. You want to make sure that you're retaining the brand you've built over time, and there might be a way to play with your price promotions without lowering your prices, but maybe more of a value approach where instead of maybe it's a two-pack or a three-pack where it's still more expensive and they're going to spend more to get it, but they're going to buy...
Mike Fowler:
The pro pack.
Phillip Oakley:
They're going to buy the pro pack's, a good way to look at it.
Mike Fowler:
Yeah.
Phillip Oakley:
That's right. Now, keep in mind if they do that, they're not going to buy the next 11. They're going to buy 12 tubes of coffee at one time. They're not buying the next 11 over the next 11 months. So again, that price promotion could cause an artificial dip in what looks like sales. But if you want to sell someone a, I don't know, a big set of pliers and throw in a small set of pliers for the same price, then you're getting them to buy your larger set of pliers and they're getting a smaller set. They hadn't planned to buy in the first place. Now you're extending your repertoire within their toolbox and winning more opportunities for a little brand recognition.
Mike Fowler:
Yeah, that's really good. We talk about how do you win at retail long term, and a big part of that is developing a real relationship and a trust-based relationship with your merchant. So the key to a long term success in any retailer is having a good relationship with your merchant, where you're working together to grow the business, where you're trying to grow their business, they're trying to help you grow your business. It's a good partnership. So in terms of branding, how do we use branding to help create wins for merchants? So whatever retailer you're approaching, how do we help them win using brand?
Phillip Oakley:
Gosh, it still just comes back to the consumer and understanding what they need.
Mike Fowler:
It often does.
Phillip Oakley:
It's always about the buyer. It's not about the brand, it's not about the merchant. Although the brand can help the merchant sell, then the brand wins, but it's all about the consumer. So I'm going to use a non-hardware store example.
Mike Fowler:
Good. Good, we need those.
Phillip Oakley:
Something to extend things. The other day, I don't sit and watch a lot of television, but I met a buddy at a bar and had a beer and NFL was on, and there's three televisions in front of us, three different games, and the matter of about 20 to 30 minutes, I saw an AT&T commercial and I saw a Verizon commercial. Now in it of itself, those are really big brands. They're recognizable brands. They weren't selling AT&T or Verizon. They were selling the new iPhone.
Now they had their own sort of creative, they had their own messaging. They both had celebrities in the spot, but it was almost interchangeable of we now have the fastest blah, blah, blah, featuring the iPhone 14. Get it on America's fastest, blah, blah, blah. And it dawned to me it's the same thing. You've got a retailer, a merchant. If you have a strong enough brand that helps them sell why you would walk into their doors to buy it instead of the competitor's doors, that's it. You are literally lending your brand, your reputation, your trust, your connection and understanding of the target audience so that retailer can sell more. And that's the game. That's the game. And you can see it if you open up your eyes to those commercials, you'll see it everywhere.
Mike Fowler:
Yeah, I've always called that a destination brand. I don't know if that's the right terminology for it, but for me it kind of makes sense. It's a brand that you will travel for.
Phillip Oakley:
Yeah.
Mike Fowler:
And we told a story either in our blog or on an episode that somebody was looking for a very specific mug, one of our employees during, I think it was during Prime Day or right around there for a birthday or wedding gift, and she traveled in her car to five or six different retailers looking for this one very specific mug. So that's helping those retailers if you've got it in stock, that's a destination brand, that's a destination product, something that consumers are willing to travel for and willing to put in the work to go and get. That's pretty impactful for any retailer to partner with a brand like that, so creating that could be really impactful for your brand or for you as a manufacturer.
So if I were to give you kind of one thing to sum it up for manufacturers out there in terms of branding and just bring it all back to that, what advice would you give to manufacturers if you had to give them one piece of advice? What would you say? Look into the camera kind of thing and say, "Hey, hear this, if you've heard nothing else."
Phillip Oakley:
Brand happens whether you like it or not. And if you're not being purposeful with trying to sculpt, that's the point of branding, trying to sculpt that perception to give someone something to believe in, and then actually following up and doing the things you say you're going to do, then whatever they read on Amazon or whatever they hear from their buddy at the bar or their aunt over Thanksgiving dinner, that is their perception of your brand. So be purposeful. Understand all the places where your target audience is going to make a connection with that brand. Be there for them and be there purposefully.
Mike Fowler:
Yeah, that's really good. All right, so every time I have somebody in the seat, I never let them go without a couple hot seat questions. So we got a couple hot seat questions for you. You won't be held to any answers that you give here today, so just let them fly off the cuff. I'm going to ask you a question, kind of rapid response, whatever pops into your brain. All right. First one is, what's your favorite section of browse when you're at Lowe's?
Phillip Oakley:
I love the outdoor garden area. Now. I worked there.
Mike Fowler:
Yeah.
Phillip Oakley:
I literally ran the department, so I understand so many things that are happening, and I actually worked in a shrub nursery as a kid.
Mike Fowler:
Okay.
Phillip Oakley:
So I've just been around that stuff. But even as a marketer, I like walking into the outdoor lawn and garden section, understanding that the plants are living, it's the only part of the store where something's alive. There's dust on stuff inside, who cares? Some people just buy it anyway. If you don't keep those plants alive, you have a real shrink problem. But then you also have consumers coming in and they're kind of wandering around bright idle. This is pretty, but will it grow in my house? Or how do I take care of it? Am I going to kill it just by putting it in the shade? It's a place where marketing can actually really connect the audience with how to use the product, keep it alive.
The other thing is I think it's such a missed opportunity for merchandising. So there's ways to get around it, of course, by not using paper or plastic on some of your labeling, but why aren't the shovels by the soil? Why aren't the hand clippers sold beside the bushes? Why is there something in the checkouts covered in dirt? If it's not selling, move it and get something up there that does sell. And seasonal could be every two weeks. Seasonal is not March through June. So make sure you're constantly moving that stuff in and out. And so I'm obviously a brand slash marketing geek standing at Lowe's with my dirt looking around going, "Oh my gosh. They could be selling 30% more if they just changed that one section of the store." Anyway.
Mike Fowler:
Yeah.
Phillip Oakley:
So, yeah. Love it.
Mike Fowler:
It's a good reason to be in the stores because you do get to notice those things, right?
Phillip Oakley:
That's right.
Mike Fowler:
All right. Describe the weirdest commercial you remember from your childhood?
Phillip Oakley:
Weirdest is really, that's really wide.
Mike Fowler:
I'll let you define weird however you choose.
Phillip Oakley:
I'll say weird as in a negative way, and we've talked about this before here, is the McDonald's Arch Deluxe sandwich, and this is considered one of those brand failures that are out there. You can Google it if you haven't heard of the Arch Deluxe sandwich. But they basically wanted to compete with some other places and make... Later Hardee's had the $12 cheeseburger, and that was just a much better way to present it. They did the Arch Deluxe and the marketing was all around having a refined pallet. They had the commercials with these chefs, those Michelin Star chefs putting the bun on top of the burger. But what they led with was this, I don't know, this 13, 14 year old boy, maybe a 15 and a girl on a date at McDonald's. And the girl's sitting there with her Arch Deluxe, and he's sitting there with a, I don't know, some other sandwich, and he's got ketchup smeared on the side of his face, and he's picking up pickles and dropping him in his mouth, and he's just being gross.
I don't know if he belched or not, but that was the feeling you got. And the whole message was around being refined when you eat, but that kid was my age, so I was like, "I don't act like that." Again, this is understanding the target audience. You're saying I eat like that? I'm not going back to McDonald's for a while. I'm never taking a date there, not that I ever did, but I'm never going to take a date to McDonald's. I'm going to feel like I'm that guy. I'm going to be uncomfortable. I just thought that was just the weirdest commercial to lead that product with.
Mike Fowler:
Kind of always goes back to understanding your consumer, right?
Phillip Oakley:
Always understand the consumer. Exactly.
Mike Fowler:
You got to understand your computer.
Phillip Oakley:
They didn't ask any 14 year old boys what they thought about that, that's for certain.
Mike Fowler:
Right. So to that end, what era of McDonald's branding has been your favorite?
Phillip Oakley:
The Happy Meal, man.
Mike Fowler:
Oh man.
Phillip Oakley:
So again, let's take it back to understanding the target audience. Adults know they shouldn't eat fast food all the time, but you're on a road trip or you're after the soccer game or you're in the car and you're headed home and you don't want to go home and make a healthy meal. You're like, "Ah, I could go home and have a sandwich, but this kid in the backseat, oh, what's going to make them happy?" The Happy Meal. Of course, you're going to go through the drive-through, you're going to spend, then it was like $7, now it's going to be $25, but you're going to go through and get a Happy Meal. The kid's going to eat and they're going to eat it all. They're going to like it, and they're going to be pacified with all the shiny shenanigans that are associated with... And I don't mean the bag, that was copping out, the Happy Meal with the bag. Come on. It's the arches on top their box.
Mike Fowler:
The box thing was so cool.
Phillip Oakley:
And I haven't checked it out yet, but apparently that's making a resurface. The Happy Meal with the box is coming back, but it's not for kids. It's actually for adults who ate those Happy Meal boxes as a kid.
Mike Fowler:
Who lived through it like you and I.
Phillip Oakley:
So I don't know what's behind it yet. I have to go check it out, but they're trying to retarget us with a Happy Meal. I'm curious to see what's in there.
Mike Fowler:
That's cool. I don't have lunch plans, so maybe we can go check it out.
Phillip Oakley:
Let's go get one. Yeah.
Mike Fowler:
We'll expense it as part of marketing research.
Phillip Oakley:
Research.
Mike Fowler:
Branding research. All right. That was really a great conversation on brand. First off, I want to say thanks a lot for being here, Phillip. Thanks for joining.
Phillip Oakley:
Thank you much.
Mike Fowler:
Really enjoyed the conversation. If you didn't catch first part of that episode, go back and catch part one. Phillip, while you're here, any shout-outs, anything that you want to say to the folks out there?
Phillip Oakley:
Yeah, sure. Thanks. I'm very active on LinkedIn and Twitter. Love having these conversations all day long. You can find me on Twitter at @phillip_oakley. That's Phillip with two L's. And LinkedIn, linkedin.com/in/phillipoakley. Two L's. Yeah.
Mike Fowler:
Fantastic. Well make sure you go and check out Phillip. I've heard from other people that he might have some juicy personal stuff on Twitter, so go check that out, it's always interesting. And thank you guys for being here. So really want to say thanks again for watching and tuning in to Retail Oriented. We are here for you guys, so if there's anything that you've found particularly interesting, let's get into a debate in the comments, drop a comment there, tell us what you found interesting. If you had questions, drop them in there. Wherever you listen or watch your podcasts, whether it's Apple, iTunes, Spotify, YouTube, Vimeo, all the different platforms, we're monitoring all of that stuff. So go and check it out, or you can drop me an email personally, mike.fowler@salesfactory.com. I would love to hear from you, what you're liking, what you're not liking.
If you've got a guest or a topic that you want us to cover, please send it our way. Or you can go to our website, salesfactory.com and submit a submission form there. So tons of ways to get in touch with us. We also hope that you'll click that like button and subscribe button, the little bell icon to make sure that you're catching Retail Oriented whenever it comes out, and hopefully it's bringing some really good stuff and interesting stuff for you to start thinking about with your brand and how that's interacting in retail. And remember, at retail, it's all about selling in and selling through.
